spnanonhaven

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#84

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I doubt it. All indications are that this is a non-adversarial, sympathetic character, not someone who is out to manipulate Sam and not someone who is part of a dark turn on Sam's part. Unless you hold with the view that any sexual or romantic interest on Sam's part while Dean is in purgatory is evil for some reason, I don't see any similarities.

(I have to assume that the idea that a love interest when Dean is gone is a ~~betrayal on Sam's part is coming from a shipper place. If you look at the regular run of fiction, a person who fell into a romantic relationship while dealing with their sibling being in a POW camp, for instance, wouldn't generally be considered a blameworthy thing. Some people in fandom seem to be reacting more the way they'd react if someone got into a romantic relationship while their romantic partner was a POW. Plus, as far as the spoilers we have so far go, they could not even meet till Dean is out, or they could meet before but not become seriously involved till later, especially if there is flashback stuff going on.)

na

It's not exactly like that.

I'm a Sam!girl and I'll stick to him anyway. But, unless a lot of time has passed, let's say a year, I find it in fact a bit disrespectful. He knows Dean is not dead and gone, he's 'somewhere', in danger, but he also knows he can come back (because if you can come back from Hell, you can come back from any other place, and because the leviathans came from Purgatory).

In his case, and I'm in no way as passionate about my siblings as the Winchesters are about each other, I would feel no interest in engaging in a romantic relationship. I'd be too worried, too busy trying to find a solution, because who else is going to do it?

Sex is different, an one-nighter, because that hardly takes time lol

And being a Sam!girl, I'd love to see Sam being considered a hero the same way Dean is. It's a bit unbalanced in that territory.

It's not a shipper view, trust me. It's my view as a Sam!girl.

da

I don't see it as cut and dry like that, it would depend on how that relationship is played out (that is, if Sam/Amelia happens before Dean is out).

ayrt

That's exactly how I see it. If Dean is out, then a bit of romance is ok -I'm not a big fan of how spn handles romance, so I hope is not too heavy on it-, but if it happens before he leaves Purgatory, I won't be very happy.

Huh. Last two seasons, Sam has been mostly more sympathetic than Dean. I don't think Sam's heroism or goodness is really under attack in fandom at this point. I think a lot of Samgirls may be getting oversensitive about this exactly because of a Ruby parallel that really isn't there. Unless Sam stops working on getting Dean out in order to go on vacation with Amelia or something (and from the sounds of it, Amelia is someone who is caught up and hurt in something supernatural when Sam first meets her -- he's helping someone, not going to singles events looking for dates), I honestly find this negative judgment on Sam if he begins to form a relationship before Dean is out pretty distasteful. I don't think it makes Sam less a hero any more than I think it makes Dean less a hero that he was cooking breakfast and working on a car with Ben and making friends with a coworker and having some good moments with Lisa as well as working on getting Sam out of the Cage.

ayrt

I can agree that S4 will never be far enough and yes, it still stings a bit and this only brings memories or Ruby.

But disagree on everything else. Trust me, what happened back then still rests on Sam as a character. And he's more sympathetic, yes, but never gets to make big things for his brother. Dean does, thus Dean is always the good brother.

Comparing this situation with Dean's after Swan Song is not fair either. I don't think I need to get in deep in why it is different, but that phrase "every part of Dean wants to die, or find a way to bring Sam back" is a good summary.

na

I honestly do not follow. Dean is always the good brother? Were you on meme this past year, especially around 7.16?

ayrt

That was said of Dean at the moment that Sam died. Dean was certainly both grieving and damaged, as well as working on getting Sam back, while Sam was gone, but he was also finding moments of joy and pleasure in the life that he had, forming a real bond with Lisa and Ben. Thinking that that time would only be OK if he were suicidal every moment of it to the exclusion of real interaction with people -- doesn't that seem like a, well, pretty horrible thing to suggest?

And, dude. Sam voluntarily took on Lucifer, defeated him with the help of Dean's love, and went to the Cage. He then voluntarily took on the memories of his torture and turned away from the possibility of staying happily in his head with Jess for his brother's sake. If Sam isn't heroic enough for you and doing big enough things (and that's leaving out the things that aren't directly about Dean, like reaching out the Cas after Cas had done him terrible damage, thus averting a major disaster, or helping a girl in the asylum when he was hallucinating constantly and dying of sleep deprivation), then, I've got to say, you seem to have a smaller and less sympathetic view of Sam's character than most of the Sam haters out there.

It's honestly pretty easy to read your comments as an attack on Sam, which is something you might want to consider if you consider yourself sympathetic to him.

ayrt

Ok, I know I sound a bit extremist, but that's because I want to make my point without entering to discuss the whole Lisa/Ben thing in deep. I know Dean had nice moments during that year, but he admited he was miserable.

It's not that I want them to be miserable all the time, I'm not a sadist, but given the circunstances, it would be the normal reaction.

And I think Sam has been the character that made more sacrifices. But since the end of season 5 to this day, it's always been Dean leaving his normal life for Sam and Dean risking his life to get Sam's soul back and I think this would be a good chance to repay for all the times Dean has saved Sam's life.

Once more, I don't blam Sam or think less of him, but I don't like how he's been treated (in regards of Dean mostly) lately at all. Please, don't think I hate Sam. He's my all-time favorite character, and maybe that's why I'm extra hard with the way he's written.

[Sorry, I think it's bedtime for me, if you want we can keep discussing this tomorrow.]

da

'Repay?' Damn, nonnie. I understand the things you're saying and that this is what you want to watch but the way you phrase things really bothers me.

Trust me

Sam, is that you? Shouldn't you be doing something else right now instead of arguing on the internet, young man?

Wait, are you one of those "Ruby destroyed everything!" nonnies?

Not at all.
Season 4 was a bit difficult to watch for me, but I actually liked Ruby and enjoyed the season in a masochist way.

da

So only Dean is the good brother? Biased much?

SA

OK, I think I've figured out what bothers me so much about this line of thinking that I'm seeing around -- there's something almost weirdly puritanical about it.

I don't think people would be objecting nearly so strongly if spoilers were, say, that Sam was saving Kevin from Crowley and having some intense friendship bonding with him, or that Sam and Jody were platonically bonding and Sam got some comfort out of it, or even if he and Jody had some nice moments together in which he could take some joy even while worrying about Dean. But as soon as sex or romance is introduced it's like it becomes wrong and self-seeking because there's pleasure involved in it, that having a romantic interest in some one is disrespectful or a distraction in a way that having another kind of bonding wouldn't be. As though it's the being sexual or romantic that makes something a leading astray or a temptation. Sam getting involved with Ruby was a bad thing for a ton of reasons, a bad decision of Sam's and also a bad thing that was done to Sam, but I'm getting an uneasy vibe here of sex inherently equalling temptation or a fall from the highest motives or something, as though being sexually involved and caring about getting Dean back were incompatible. And that's kind of squicky to me.

da

That's a very limited (but I guess common) view of sex.

ayrt

I can't tell if you are agreeing with me or disagreeing with me, or just making an interesting observation in an observationally interesting way.

ayrt

Again, no. It's kind of the opposite.
Read my first response. I said sex was fine. Romance was not. How's that puritanical?

A deep, time-consuming friendship with Kevin, Jody or any other character would be equally bad to me. I can't understand wasting your time when your brother, the only ramaining family you have, could be being tortured or in big problems, alone. That's it.

I see nothing wrong with sex, nothing at all. Love, in the other hand, is time-consuming and distracting, and that's why I don't like it in this situation.

It also depends if it happens just 3 months after Dean disappears, or if more time has happened. For a while at least, Sam should be trying real hard to get Dean out. It's normal if after a year or so he relaxes a bit, though.

da

Uh, suggesting that someone finding a deep friendship in a definite low period in their is wrong is pretty fucked up.

Forming support with other people isn't a waste and suggesting tht someone does so is greedy, and it's cruel.

ayrt

Wow, nonnie. A waste of time? People are evil if they seek or find support in friendship at a time when they are isolated and desperate?

I think maybe I would prefer to go elsewhere and converse with someone else, because your take on things is really, really disturbing the shit out of me.

da

Don't you know? Love and friendship has to be carefully rationed out; it's an extremely limited supply. If Sam is working with Jody to help get Dean out of some dire strait, he better not be becoming friends with Jody while he's doing so! He might get distracted and decide to not rescue Dean from the timestream!

~~~

I can't believe Sam wasted his time having that bonding moment with Jody in Time After Time. About Bobby, too! Not even about Dean. It was pretty damn disrespectful of them to take a moment to grieve and remember someone important to them at such a dire moment. I tell you, I just can't see Sam as a hero or a good brother after that.

Re: question about Sam and season 8.

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