spnanonhaven

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#84

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ayrt

S3!Sam fans unite! I love him in other seasons too, but S3 holds a special place in my heart.

I think he prefers Sam independent as well. Or maybe not so much independent as doing his own thing? He seemed happy with S3 too, after all, and Sam was very much doing his own thing that season - his thing just happened to be All About Dean.

I can get why Sam would throw up his hands and bow out if he thought Dean were dead. I really can get that. And in thinking about how the season ended, there's nothing to indicate to him that Dean and Cas were taken to Purgatory. I'd have preferred that he try to rescue Kevin at least, but Sam's tried to lay siege to Hell before for someone he cares about a whole lot more than Kevin and failed, so I can understand that he might not want to go down that road again.

I think that, for me, it'll depend in large part on how it's played out. If Sam had any shred of reason to believe that Dean was alive but elsewhere, I'll be boggled as to how his decision fits at all with his characterization. But in S7, Sam and Dean both just seemed so tired. And Sam in particular seemed to only go along with hunting the Leviathans (and hunting in general) because it was what Dean seemed to want, when Dean wanted anything besides another drink. And now he doesn't have Dean to prod him into hunting, so why keep going? Why not back off and give up? I can get that perspective, I really can.

It isn't the fan favorite one, that's for sure. It's not the more dynamic, dramatic choice they could have made. It's one of two options that I can see making sense for Sam's character (again, depending on how they play it) but it's the boring, safe one. And this show has so often chosen "boring and safe" instead of "dramatic and interesting" over the past few years that it's becoming painful to watch. I can get why it might work for Sam's character, but from a narrative and dramatic storytelling POV, I don't understand for an instant why they'd go there, especially since it just seems to be setting up for more distrust with Dean's (new) Deal.

ayrt

Hmm, I thought there was indication that Dean and Castiel were in purgatory with the "hell of a kickback" line, but who knows. I just find it hard to believe that Sam wouldn't even try a little to investigate what was going on. Just to give up even when there's no confirmation that Dean is dead? Never mind how ridiculous it would be to try to have a normal life when you're officially listed as dead and wear the face of a very well known serial killer, that's not in Sam's character AT ALL. But I think everyone's in agreement about that. I still believe there must be some sort of interference with Sam or SOMETHING, which I also DNW because we don't need another 'something supernatural is wrong with Sam' plotline, either. It seems like a lose/lose.

If Sam was told that Dean was dead, I can see him leaving the hunting life for sure, giving up, but I guess I can't get behind him being happy and in a normal relationship so quickly - after a few years of coming to terms with it on his own, maybe, but not within the year of everything that happened.

And this show has so often chosen "boring and safe" instead of "dramatic and interesting" over the past few years that it's becoming painful to watch.

Agreed :(

ayrt

This show glosses over petty details like "being wanted for mass murder" far too often. I really, really wish they'd never gone there with the Leviathans last year. Or if they had, they should have had the guts to kick Sam over to Purgatory instead of trying to give Sam a "regular" life in the suburbs or whatever. All I can do is hope that Amelia is treated better than poor Daphne - she actually married her TFW Member In Exile! And then never again mentioned by the narrative. WTF. I'm not particularly interested in any of Castiel's potential romantic arcs (I'm not interested enough in Castiel himself as a character for that, no offense Cas fans) but the dropped plot points hurt my soul.

From the spoilers, it sounds like they're going to set up a What's Wrong With Dean plot this season, since Dean's made his deal with "Benny" and seems to be keeping it a secret. Why he'd bother to keep that a secret, IDK, but who knows. It's not like that feels particularly IC either, especially since it sounds like he leaves Cas behind in Purgatory when he gets out. (Don't care much about Cas but I care a whole fuckton about Dean and Dean abandoning anyone in a situation like that leaves me seething.)

I think I need to find out more about Amelia before I make judgments on how well it works. My gut is to agree with you but there's a reason why "stranger in trouble with mysterious past sparks up a romance with innocent civilian" is such a well known trope. And very powerful bonds can be forged in dangerous situations, which is also a plot that I'm usually okay with.

I just really want Amelia to stand on her own - not be a repeat of either Ruby or Lisa. Something unique and individual.

DA

But Sam and Amelia don't seem to form an initial bond in a dangerous situation. He doesn't meet her in a supernatural context, unless they are lying to us. He accidentally hits a dog and brings it to her (she's a vet). And we're told later they have a normal relationship with normal problems. They do seem to bond over their traumatic pasts, and I do like the idea of Sam actually talking to someone (and PLEASE let us actually see it, not just find out that Sam's told her all about himself offscreen), but the whole thing made more sense to me when I thought it was a hunting encounter.

I swear, every time there's some obvious thing Spn could do to make this kind of thing more comprehensible, they go out of their way to avoid it.

ayrt

I didn't know about the dog thing. :( Hunting encounter makes so much more sense to me, plus then you have an automatically healthier relationship because he isn't lying about his past like he did with Jess.

I swear, every time there's some obvious thing Spn could do to make this kind of thing more comprehensible, they go out of their way to avoid it.

I KNOW.

ayrt

Well, it does sound like he's not lying to her -- there was a spoiler about how this was finally someone he could talk to about his past. Though I suppose it's possible that he just told her he was a recovering addict and torture victim and had lost people in his life but left out the supernatural component.

ayrt

I like the idea that he has someone to talk to. And yes, I want it to happen on screen as well. It's just hard for me to understand how they can put the hunting part in if Sam isn't hunting, you know? And leaving it out changes the entire dynamic of their relationship.

ayrt

Well, given what happened with Lisa, Sam could very reasonably think that even retired from hunting he needed to take some precautions and warn any person he was involved with about what was out there. As I recall, there was a spoiler that Amelia was initially very wary of Sam; that could come out of Sam telling her about the supernatural. Or, of course, something supernatural could happen after the dog encounter to get them together, or the tragedy in her life could have been supernatural even if Sam wasn't involved in it.

ayrt

Heh, agreed. The writers dig themselves into holes that they can't get out of, so they gloss over it. I'm not holding my breath for Amelia's characterization because of the show's treatment of females :( She'll probably be ignored once the flashbacks with her are over. I'm still not sure how I feel about her role but I'm at least willing to see how she plays out as a character. I don't want her to just be the character who makes Sam ~~happy, but rather someone interesting and complex on her own merit.

I'm not entirely against a What's Wrong with Dean plot because we've never gotten it before, and I'm all about a plot-heavy Dean season and a more emotional Sam-heavy season (although not with the emotions we've been told D:) so again, I'm optimistic there, too. It's Sam being painted as a callous asshole that worries me.

As a Casfan I'm concerned where they're going with him, especially with him being left behind in purgatory. Then again, we don't know what's going on there at all, so who knows. I don't want him to be left behind and I can't see Dean deciding to leave him behind, so I suspect something goes wrong there to keep Cas in purgatory and Dean didn't know about it. That's my story, anyway! *nods*

As long as Dean's deal doesn't involve him hiding something horrible he did (with Jensen saying that Dean is hiding things from Sam that happened in purgatory) I'm curious there. We don't need more ignoring of Dean's victimization and trauma while adding more about him doing ~horrible things ;_;

ayrt

I don't want her to just be the character who makes Sam ~~happy, but rather someone interesting and complex on her own merit.

AGREED. That was my major issue with Lisa! I loved the idea of Lisa, I loved Dean's dynamic with her and Ben, I loved the set up in 6.01-6.03, and I hated hated hated how little development Lisa had beyond The Person Who Makes Dean Happy. I really hope Amelia gets a better deal than that but I fear that you're right.

I don't think Sam will be portrayed as a callous asshole, but TBH, I'd rather him be a bit more of a jerk than he's been since he was resouled. He's been too good for my tastes, too noble. It isn't that Sam isn't both good and noble, but a flat "good" character is just as dull as a flat "bad" one and Sam's got his own reasons to feel anger or frustration. I want to see that explored! I want him to feel three dimensional too!

I wouldn't mind a What's Wrong With Dean plot, it just feels like they've chosen a really stupid way to give us one and not one that makes a lot of sense for Dean's characterization. But eh, I guess anything is better than what we've had with Dean for the past two seasons, so I'll give it a shot.

I like Cas as a character, I'm just not too interested in exploring his psyche and the whys of what he does, not like I am with Sam and Dean. It just bothers me a lot that they've made direct comparisons to Purgatory and Hell and I really, really can't see Dean abandoning anyone he considers family there. Hell, I can't see Dean abandoning anyone he considers human there, not if he has a chance to save them. (This really sticks in my craw with Adam too, in case it isn't obvious. Adam felt like a one-time aberration though, not something that was meant to be seen as part of an ongoing trend.)

So I'm worried about Cas being left behind since that's what it sounds like happened, given that there's no spoilers with Cas out of Purgatory. But maybe that one anon is right and we'll get occasional flashbacks to Cas in Purgatory and a seasonal plot will be to try to get him out?

We don't need more ignoring of Dean's victimization and trauma while adding more about him doing ~horrible things ;_;

Agreed. I just don't need any more dark!Dean doing dark activities for the sake of being dark. I want exploration of Dean's victimization, not further covering it up and pretending it didn't happen.

ayrt

I actually think Lisa had some development outside of her making Dean happy! I can't really put into words why, but I feel like I know her rather than just her connection with Dean. I have given her a lot of thought so that might be it, haha.

True about Sam, too - he's been way too saintlike and perfect and he needs to be a little rougher around the edges. This reaction is still wildly OOC and I'd rather him be angry at the hand he's been dealt rather than being so blase about it. It's okay to be angry, Sam! Writers, it's okay to let Sam be angry! Not at Dean, but at Cas, even, Crowley, SOMEBODY.

I actually am not interested in Castiel's time in purgatory, either. I like him a lot but not really where they've been taking him :( it's been harder to care about him since S6 for me, so I'm really hoping they do something interesting with his character while tying it in to the other characters. Lately his role has felt forced. I don't want them to be all about getting Cas out of purgatory, either, so I hope he gets out soon. I still don't think Dean left Castiel behind out of malice.

ADAM ;_; Also, Kevin :( he and Adam may end up sharing the tiara of manpain.

Exactly. I think this is why some memers say they're annoyed with Dean and don't like him because they're taking after the show's perception of Dean's victimization - that is, he's being a wimp and needs to get over it. Depression is an ugly thing and it's common in RL for people to be annoyed about depressed people, too. :/ It's not ~convenient for them.

ayrt

I have too! I love Dean/Lisa which is why it hurt somewhat to realize on rewatching that they really hadn't told us much about her at all. All we know is somehow related to Dean. We know she has a sister but only because she compares their relationship to Sam and Dean's. We know she has a type, but only because Dean fits it. We don't even know if she still teaches yoga, or what her favorite movie is (my head canon is Die Hard or Alien), favorite food or color or anything along those lines. We know she can handle a shotgun but only because Dean taught her. That really frustrates me.

She felt like she was only written in to give Dean a place to stay after Sam fell, and then written out again as quickly as possible. The original plan wasn't even to bring her back for 6.21 but I don't think they had anything else for Dean to do and they were surprised to hear fans complain that Mannequin didn't feel too resolved. :(

Yes, yes, yes about Sam! I don't get the idea that Sam's ~deadly sin~ was Wrath, it never felt that way to me, but it's like they don't want to let him express even normal degrees of hurt or anger now. And he's got a lot to be angry about, okay? Give him the chance to be angry! It doesn't have to be at Dean but I wouldn't mind if it was, unfair as that is. It's one of the stages of grieving, to be furious at someone for leaving you, even if you know objectively that it wasn't their fault. It feels like Sam should be mad at Dean for continually dying on him. It's not an asshole thing at all to me, it's incredibly sympathetic and human. It's the opposite even, because he'd only be mad because he loves Dean so much.

Or just have him pissed off at Cas and Crowley and Lucifer and any number of other people. That's okay, too.

I loved Cas in S6 (he was probably my favorite character that season - I really didn't care for S6!Dean most of the time and didn't like when Sam/RoboSam was passive) but just found hippie!Cas to be annoying. Cas in Purgatory might be interesting but Cas is most interesting to me when he's being a BAMF, early S4 style for preference. Since the spoilers make it sound like this is Castiel's version of Hell, I'm not too intrigued by it. :/

Ah, but by having to share the shiny tiara of manpain, Adam's manpain will only increase! Thus restoring his rightful place as single owner of the shiny tiara!

Dean isn't being a wimp to me, or being weak. He feels to me like a 90s antihero from a comic book though, if you know that trend. There's not really any exploration of what he's doing, it's almost like it's there more for shock factor or because someone thinks its ~cool. Depression is certainly inconvenient for everyone involved, it's an ugly, hurtful thing. I've been depressed and surrounded by depressed people most of my life. For me, I get annoyed with Dean's characterization not because he's depressed or not recovering, but because he often feels stagnant. Which I recognize can be caused by depression, but the two aren't equivalent to me. Dean's been depressed since the get-go but it's only been these past two seasons that he feels so hollow.

DA

I'd love to see a little more anger, rational and irrational, in current!Sam. I thought Sam's issues with anger, constructive and destructive, were interesting and well handled at every point in canon EXCEPT s5 when it was suddenly his Deadly Sin. And I've enjoyed his moments of anger in s6 and s7, asking if Cas brought him back soulless on purpose, confronting Dean about the mindwipe and Amy. But I think his characterization would benefit from having more of the kind of anger which is either unfair (like getting angry at Dean for dying on him) or not directly usable (like being angry at Lucifer and at hell). Though I do find the absence of anger at his hell trauma, his insistence on using it to get past his guilt or feel like he's paid his dues or to understand Cas's trauma and reach out to him interesting. I think there's a whole lot of aspects of what happened to him that Sam hasn't begun to cope with because he coped them right out of the way so efficiently and he hasn't been willing or able to spend time in the negative, unconstructive space of his trauma.

I like that they are getting back to Sam wanting something for himself in life (though I am far from convinced that they are handling it well), but it still doesn't feel like a full choice to me, from the spoilers. Going back to what he wanted in the past because he feels like he's lost everyone and has no anchor in hunting, idk, it feels more provisional than goal-like, but it might get Sam back in the practice of wanting and able to make some real choices when Dean is back. I do like the idea of Sam and Dean having to sort out different desires again, hopefully without feeling betrayed or coerced by what the other one wants this time.

da

I do like the idea of Sam and Dean having to sort out different desires again, hopefully without feeling betrayed or coerced by what the other one wants this time.

But we already have Edlund saying that Dean resents Sam for not trying and getting out of hunting, so that horse is out of the barn. And if Sam is happy not hunting, then why would he go back?

(Don't care much about Cas but I care a whole fuckton about Dean and Dean abandoning anyone in a situation like that leaves me seething.)

LOL my petty self enjoys anything that is kick to the nads of the delusional Destiel stans on tumblr tbh. And u could make an argument that it is in character. He chose Sam over Adam and left him in hell without a second thought. Dean given a choice would pick himself over Cas of course.

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#84

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