#84

[spnanonhaven]

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Comments

Re: CC Press video interviews--SPOILERS

[(Anonymous)]

ayrt

Heh, agreed. The writers dig themselves into holes that they can't get out of, so they gloss over it. I'm not holding my breath for Amelia's characterization because of the show's treatment of females :( She'll probably be ignored once the flashbacks with her are over. I'm still not sure how I feel about her role but I'm at least willing to see how she plays out as a character. I don't want her to just be the character who makes Sam ~~happy, but rather someone interesting and complex on her own merit.

I'm not entirely against a What's Wrong with Dean plot because we've never gotten it before, and I'm all about a plot-heavy Dean season and a more emotional Sam-heavy season (although not with the emotions we've been told D:) so again, I'm optimistic there, too. It's Sam being painted as a callous asshole that worries me.

As a Casfan I'm concerned where they're going with him, especially with him being left behind in purgatory. Then again, we don't know what's going on there at all, so who knows. I don't want him to be left behind and I can't see Dean deciding to leave him behind, so I suspect something goes wrong there to keep Cas in purgatory and Dean didn't know about it. That's my story, anyway! *nods*

As long as Dean's deal doesn't involve him hiding something horrible he did (with Jensen saying that Dean is hiding things from Sam that happened in purgatory) I'm curious there. We don't need more ignoring of Dean's victimization and trauma while adding more about him doing ~horrible things ;_;

Re: CC Press video interviews--SPOILERS

[(Anonymous)]

ayrt

I don't want her to just be the character who makes Sam ~~happy, but rather someone interesting and complex on her own merit.

AGREED. That was my major issue with Lisa! I loved the idea of Lisa, I loved Dean's dynamic with her and Ben, I loved the set up in 6.01-6.03, and I hated hated hated how little development Lisa had beyond The Person Who Makes Dean Happy. I really hope Amelia gets a better deal than that but I fear that you're right.

I don't think Sam will be portrayed as a callous asshole, but TBH, I'd rather him be a bit more of a jerk than he's been since he was resouled. He's been too good for my tastes, too noble. It isn't that Sam isn't both good and noble, but a flat "good" character is just as dull as a flat "bad" one and Sam's got his own reasons to feel anger or frustration. I want to see that explored! I want him to feel three dimensional too!

I wouldn't mind a What's Wrong With Dean plot, it just feels like they've chosen a really stupid way to give us one and not one that makes a lot of sense for Dean's characterization. But eh, I guess anything is better than what we've had with Dean for the past two seasons, so I'll give it a shot.

I like Cas as a character, I'm just not too interested in exploring his psyche and the whys of what he does, not like I am with Sam and Dean. It just bothers me a lot that they've made direct comparisons to Purgatory and Hell and I really, really can't see Dean abandoning anyone he considers family there. Hell, I can't see Dean abandoning anyone he considers human there, not if he has a chance to save them. (This really sticks in my craw with Adam too, in case it isn't obvious. Adam felt like a one-time aberration though, not something that was meant to be seen as part of an ongoing trend.)

So I'm worried about Cas being left behind since that's what it sounds like happened, given that there's no spoilers with Cas out of Purgatory. But maybe that one anon is right and we'll get occasional flashbacks to Cas in Purgatory and a seasonal plot will be to try to get him out?

We don't need more ignoring of Dean's victimization and trauma while adding more about him doing ~horrible things ;_;

Agreed. I just don't need any more dark!Dean doing dark activities for the sake of being dark. I want exploration of Dean's victimization, not further covering it up and pretending it didn't happen.

Re: CC Press video interviews--SPOILERS

[(Anonymous)]

ayrt

I actually think Lisa had some development outside of her making Dean happy! I can't really put into words why, but I feel like I know her rather than just her connection with Dean. I have given her a lot of thought so that might be it, haha.

True about Sam, too - he's been way too saintlike and perfect and he needs to be a little rougher around the edges. This reaction is still wildly OOC and I'd rather him be angry at the hand he's been dealt rather than being so blase about it. It's okay to be angry, Sam! Writers, it's okay to let Sam be angry! Not at Dean, but at Cas, even, Crowley, SOMEBODY.

I actually am not interested in Castiel's time in purgatory, either. I like him a lot but not really where they've been taking him :( it's been harder to care about him since S6 for me, so I'm really hoping they do something interesting with his character while tying it in to the other characters. Lately his role has felt forced. I don't want them to be all about getting Cas out of purgatory, either, so I hope he gets out soon. I still don't think Dean left Castiel behind out of malice.

ADAM ;_; Also, Kevin :( he and Adam may end up sharing the tiara of manpain.

Exactly. I think this is why some memers say they're annoyed with Dean and don't like him because they're taking after the show's perception of Dean's victimization - that is, he's being a wimp and needs to get over it. Depression is an ugly thing and it's common in RL for people to be annoyed about depressed people, too. :/ It's not ~convenient for them.

Re: CC Press video interviews--SPOILERS

[(Anonymous)]

ayrt

I have too! I love Dean/Lisa which is why it hurt somewhat to realize on rewatching that they really hadn't told us much about her at all. All we know is somehow related to Dean. We know she has a sister but only because she compares their relationship to Sam and Dean's. We know she has a type, but only because Dean fits it. We don't even know if she still teaches yoga, or what her favorite movie is (my head canon is Die Hard or Alien), favorite food or color or anything along those lines. We know she can handle a shotgun but only because Dean taught her. That really frustrates me.

She felt like she was only written in to give Dean a place to stay after Sam fell, and then written out again as quickly as possible. The original plan wasn't even to bring her back for 6.21 but I don't think they had anything else for Dean to do and they were surprised to hear fans complain that Mannequin didn't feel too resolved. :(

Yes, yes, yes about Sam! I don't get the idea that Sam's ~deadly sin~ was Wrath, it never felt that way to me, but it's like they don't want to let him express even normal degrees of hurt or anger now. And he's got a lot to be angry about, okay? Give him the chance to be angry! It doesn't have to be at Dean but I wouldn't mind if it was, unfair as that is. It's one of the stages of grieving, to be furious at someone for leaving you, even if you know objectively that it wasn't their fault. It feels like Sam should be mad at Dean for continually dying on him. It's not an asshole thing at all to me, it's incredibly sympathetic and human. It's the opposite even, because he'd only be mad because he loves Dean so much.

Or just have him pissed off at Cas and Crowley and Lucifer and any number of other people. That's okay, too.

I loved Cas in S6 (he was probably my favorite character that season - I really didn't care for S6!Dean most of the time and didn't like when Sam/RoboSam was passive) but just found hippie!Cas to be annoying. Cas in Purgatory might be interesting but Cas is most interesting to me when he's being a BAMF, early S4 style for preference. Since the spoilers make it sound like this is Castiel's version of Hell, I'm not too intrigued by it. :/

Ah, but by having to share the shiny tiara of manpain, Adam's manpain will only increase! Thus restoring his rightful place as single owner of the shiny tiara!

Dean isn't being a wimp to me, or being weak. He feels to me like a 90s antihero from a comic book though, if you know that trend. There's not really any exploration of what he's doing, it's almost like it's there more for shock factor or because someone thinks its ~cool. Depression is certainly inconvenient for everyone involved, it's an ugly, hurtful thing. I've been depressed and surrounded by depressed people most of my life. For me, I get annoyed with Dean's characterization not because he's depressed or not recovering, but because he often feels stagnant. Which I recognize can be caused by depression, but the two aren't equivalent to me. Dean's been depressed since the get-go but it's only been these past two seasons that he feels so hollow.

Re: CC Press video interviews--SPOILERS

[(Anonymous)]

DA

I'd love to see a little more anger, rational and irrational, in current!Sam. I thought Sam's issues with anger, constructive and destructive, were interesting and well handled at every point in canon EXCEPT s5 when it was suddenly his Deadly Sin. And I've enjoyed his moments of anger in s6 and s7, asking if Cas brought him back soulless on purpose, confronting Dean about the mindwipe and Amy. But I think his characterization would benefit from having more of the kind of anger which is either unfair (like getting angry at Dean for dying on him) or not directly usable (like being angry at Lucifer and at hell). Though I do find the absence of anger at his hell trauma, his insistence on using it to get past his guilt or feel like he's paid his dues or to understand Cas's trauma and reach out to him interesting. I think there's a whole lot of aspects of what happened to him that Sam hasn't begun to cope with because he coped them right out of the way so efficiently and he hasn't been willing or able to spend time in the negative, unconstructive space of his trauma.

I like that they are getting back to Sam wanting something for himself in life (though I am far from convinced that they are handling it well), but it still doesn't feel like a full choice to me, from the spoilers. Going back to what he wanted in the past because he feels like he's lost everyone and has no anchor in hunting, idk, it feels more provisional than goal-like, but it might get Sam back in the practice of wanting and able to make some real choices when Dean is back. I do like the idea of Sam and Dean having to sort out different desires again, hopefully without feeling betrayed or coerced by what the other one wants this time.

Re: CC Press video interviews--SPOILERS

[(Anonymous)]

da

I do like the idea of Sam and Dean having to sort out different desires again, hopefully without feeling betrayed or coerced by what the other one wants this time.

But we already have Edlund saying that Dean resents Sam for not trying and getting out of hunting, so that horse is out of the barn. And if Sam is happy not hunting, then why would he go back?