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#84

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da

why developing side characters couldn't help give the brothers good stories.

At this point, I feel like their main relationship arc has been almost successfully completed. Without substantial side characters, it's almost like Sam and Dean are stuck in this limbo where they are supportive of each other and also unable to fully help each other through their individual traumas. They're generally speaking, pretty comfortable and conflict-free. (I know there was the Amy thing, but it definitely felt pretty light weight to me - just think of how much more powerful it would have been had she been around for a few episodes first).

It's substantial, relevant side characters who can help tease out new levels and depths to Sam and Dean individually and together.

ayrt

I pretty much agree. Sam and Dean have been on more or less good terms since the return of Sam's soul. Their problems in S7 were the collapsed wall and depression, respectively, not a conflict between the brothers. Side characters could be incredibly helpful and illuminating at this point (and I mean both brand new and established).

da

Yeah but the problem wasn't even really S7 lacking side characters. It was the writing. I mean, they still had tons of guest characters throughout the season, probably as many as usual, but the problem is the writers didn't use them to tell us anything new. For the majority of the season, it was Dean and Sam giving the same two respective speeches to different people: "my life sucks" and "my life sucks but it could be worse." The only character I can think of that I felt brought really insight other than that constant repetition out from the brothers was Krissy. Even Osiris, who was basically created solely to provide Dean insight, just told us all the same issues we already knew Dean had. (Have I blocked anyone else out? I honestly may have.)

So at this point I'm imagining Sam and Dean could interact with no one but other people for a whole season and, with these writers, there still be a snail's crawl of development with them. :|

ayrt

Well, I think a lack of developed side characters is part of bad writing, but I otherwise agree with you. I think Sam and Dean were both pretty stagnant in S7.

So at this point I'm imagining Sam and Dean could interact with no one but other people for a whole season and, with these writers, there still be a snail's crawl of development with them.

Your depressing point depresses me, but may well prove valid. :(

That's not really accurate. I don't think Sam ever spoke about his situation at all to anyone but Dean and Bobby (and he didn't voluntarily confide in Bobby; Bobby probed, once, Sam deflected); it was Dean who talked about himself and his stuff to ghost!Jo, Osiris bartender, Vegas stripper, Frank, Krissy, etc. And some of those conversations did have genuine Dean insight going on.

Which isn't a Dean gets all the development criticism -- it's that they were doing the insight for Sam through his interactions with Hallucifer. I really think it could have worked, and was working up to a point, as an illustration of a different kind of relationship problem. It wasn't that they were at odds. In fact, the Amy thing generated more communication between them in some ways than we saw elsewhere. It's that Dean didn't trust Sam's sanity and wellbeing (not didn't trust Sam) enough to talk to him directly, as with the Amy thing, so his breakdown of coping (and some of his more positive moments -- his interactions with Krissy represented some healing on his part, I think) was spilling on random people while he turned away Sam's attempts to get him to talk. Sam, meanwhile, was locked in his head and scared of what was going on in his head, didn't want to burden Dean when he could see Dean was teetering, and needed for his own defense the belief that he could cope keeping Lucifer at bay, so he wasn't opening up to anyone at all about what was going on with him or how he felt about it.

That situation itself was a problem in their relationship, and it could have worked if there had been a structure of crisis and resolution at the end of the season instead of the switch into neutral with the Sam and Dean stuff. I don't think it was a matter of secondary characters or no secondary characters (I think Cas gave some good Dean and Sam insight, I think ghost!Bobby failed spectacularly but could in theory have given such), it was a matter of having things like the conversation at the end of Slice Girls end up going nowhere at the end of the season.

And I disagree. Sam and Dean don't talk to each other anymore. They don't support each other except in dire emergencies. Dean was swimming in the bottom of a bottle for most of the season and Sam was supposedly battling Lucifer-- not that we ever saw that-- no, he's fine! How many times have we heard that they could be any two random hunters driving around in a car together? There needs to be something that unites them, that they both have to fight against together.

+1

The show needs to show us Sam and Dean really caring for each other, confront the brothers' problems and not quick-fix them, and fuck! talk a bit. I know that's not the Winchester style but till S5 they used to talk from time to time.

It's not like they're not carrying enough shit with them.

Well apparently two men talking emotionally with one another is too unmanly for this show all of the sudden, so don't expect Sam and Dean to be doing a lot of that.

And even when they're fighting it's too ~romcom~.

da

At this point, I feel like their main relationship arc has been almost successfully completed.

Oh, that makes me so sad. I'm usually an independent!boys kinda fan, but for some reason, that just pings to me in the most terrible way. Not because I think you're wrong, at least, not where the writers are concerned, but because it explains so well the general lack of dynamic writing that we've seen for Sam and Dean recently.

It shouldn't be that way. Sam and Dean had their conflicts in S1-S3 but they were mainly on each others sides. The spark in their relationship didn't come from the conflict, anyway. It came from the mutual protectiveness and the genuine affection between them. Even in S4, when the tension took whole new meaning, that affection and protectiveness still felt in play to me. S1 had the conflict over John and S2 had the conflict over monsters and S3 had the conflict over whether Sam should trust Ruby or even try to break Dean's deal at all, but at the same time, those conflicts could have been removed and an interesting relationship left in effect.

S7 doesn't have that interesting relationship anymore. There's no conflict either to keep things spiced up.

I want more side characters, I love the side characters, and I think that there could have been some really fantastic exploration of Sam and Dean through side characters and still can be - exploration of Dean through Cas and exploration of Sam through Kevin, that sort of thing - but that shouldn't be a replacement for exploring Sam and Dean in light of each other.

ayrt

Well I guess my response to that would be if this were a movie or a book I would expect it to be just about wrapping up. Story told, brothers finally coming back to each other, on the same side, and maybe on the path to healing.

On the flip side, imagine if Pride and Prejudice were a tv show that went on after the resolution and Elizabeth and Darcy are just hanging out, being married, happy but without tension. Their arc finished by the time the book was over. It wouldn't be very exciting, unless some other supporting character came in and caused mayhem and/or conflict and/or something interesting.

So I don't think there's anything wrong with where Sam and Dean are right now - it's just the perils of a tv show going on indefinitely.

In S1-3, a lot of the interesting development to me didn't come so much from the light banter as it came from their underlying issues with each other, their dad, the hunting lifestyle, self worth, etc. And now that it's been dealt with, what's left is occasional light banter and an external force causing the central plot obstacle. So to tie their relationship to the plot again, we'd need relevant, substantial supporting characters. Otherwise we're left with Elizabeth and Darcy (I can't for the life of me think of his first name) hanging out, being married and kind of dull.

da

I want more side characters, I love the side characters, and I think that there could have been some really fantastic exploration of Sam and Dean through side characters and still can be - exploration of Dean through Cas and exploration of Sam through Kevin, that sort of thing - but that shouldn't be a replacement for exploring Sam and Dean in light of each other.

I don't think development can be an all or nothing thing, but I think fresh blood could give Dean and Sam the impetus to have their relationship grow a bit, as they each adjust to new circumstances, relationships, etc. Character growth shouldn't be entirely dependent on new relationships, of course, but they could carry back to Sam and Dean in interesting ways/help give the brothers a story that grows them both as individuals and in relation to each other. (It's not the only way to do it, but after S7, I think it would be one of the easier ways).

Maybe with that new Benny character, that will most likely be the monster Dean finds, we can get some development.

I'm afraid Amelia will just bring the old short-lived romance where they have to part ways or she ends up being a victim and dying or rejecting the hunters. not very interesting after 9,000 times. But I have faith in that new monster character for Dean.

And hopefully the brothers can get to talk a bit, talking would bring character development too.

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#84

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