spnanonhaven | Regrouping and Backup

I originally shipped RoboSam/Gwen but then that alpha vamp episode got me intrigued by Dean/Gwen since they seemed like they had that little bonding moment. Plus she thinks he has ~~delicate features. (Which is a line I really don't get since Dean looked so tired that episode and worn down, but hey, if it supports my ship, it supports my ship.)

But RoboSam/Gwen would be pretty awesome. And RoboSam/Gwen with Gwen whispering in RoboSam's ear about how hot a threesome might be would be even more awesome.

I thought Samuel would be ambiguous until the start of the second episode. His characterization there was a spot on match with the flashbacks to RoboSam and Samuel hunting together later in the season. He seems pretty normal in his reactions there, like what we saw in 4.03. Which makes his working for Crowley and acting as a kidnapper/torturer all the stranger to me. I don't understand him, I don't understand his motivations. Bringing his dead daughter back to life isn't enough for me to get him playing that role unless he's got reason to think that Mary is suffering somehow.

In general, it just felt like there was a whole lot of interesting potential with the Campbells. It was this whole other look at a hunting community and that's always fascinating to me. So to have it so cut off and without any explanation of those characters and their backstories and why they didn't care about Samuel returning and taking on a leadership role or why their lives were so different from what we saw in 4x03... I'm so curious! And I doubt we'll ever find out.

Is this what the Novak nonnies feel like? I think this is what the Novak nonnies feel like. D:

DA

I had honestly thought that the Campbells were brought in to show the absolute opposite of the "apple pie" life that Dean was leaving behind, so that he'd be balanced between the two extremes.

But that doesn't explain why they went there with the Campbells when we'd already seen how the Campbells hunted in 4x03 and they actually had that mystical blend of both being domestic and settled AND hunting. Which I'd really kind of loved, the idea of Samuel and Deanna passing down knowledge and traditions but staying in one town, with their home and seeming happy as a family despite that. I love the idea that you can have both hunting and a reasonably normal life, like the best of both worlds.

So you're probably right but it doesn't explain the huge contradiction from what we saw earlier.

da

I loved that too, and it's just the sort of life I've always wanted for Dean (eventually): still involved with hunting, because I don't think he could stay away from a hunt, but with a home base and a family that he feels comfortable teaching about what's out there. (Actually, I wanted this for Dean/Jo, but clearly that's not going to happen.)

ayrt

Same here! I've wanted that for Dean since I first saw S1. It seemed like Sam would be happiest completely out of hunting (and depressingly is now resigned to the concept that he won't ever have/deserve that), but even back then I wanted Dean to have a mixture of the two since it seemed that he actually did get a certain joy out of hunting, if only in the saving people aspect.

Dean/Jo or Dean/Gwen are the Dean pairings I could see that happening with the most. I enjoy Dean/Lisa, but Dean's so against sharing hunting with his loved ones that I can only really see him embracing this duel existence if his partner is a hunter as well. At least with his current mentality towards hunting, anyway.

ayrt

Yep, I was shipping Dean/Gwen too, right up until the exact moment he shot her. (I was leaving a 'yay Dean/Gwen!' comment on meme as it happened, ugh.) But I think someone like that could be really good for him, in terms of bridging the current gap between 'hunter' and 'good person' in his mind. He thinks less of himself after being around Lisa, when he's constantly comparing himself to her (even though she doesn't think those things of him at all), but if the person he saw every day was another hunter who had done the things he'd done and who he still saw as a good person, like Jo? He might start to feel better about himself. (IMO, of course!)

I've got to laugh here because I think I was the other anon in the thread who was posting a Dean/Gwen comment when that moment happened. I basically wrote something like "Wow, I think I like Dean/Gwen! This makes me feel guilty as a Dean/Lis- Oh holy fuck." Dean's killing of Gwen and Dean's general lack of reaction about killing Gwen sticks in my craw. Do not want.

I think Dean and Lisa would have been very good for each other if Dean had been even remotely in a more healthy place in terms of mental health and self esteem. He was actually doing pretty good at the start of the season, I think, but Dean's problem from S1 onward has been one of thinking that if he can't have something, it isn't worth trying for and he doesn't deserve it anyway.

As long as he was with Ben and Lisa and not fucking things up, everything was fine but the moment he was away from them from an extended period of time, things got shakier. And then add in vamp!Dean putting them in danger and yeah, things were done. Much as I like Dean and Lisa, things were done.

Your final part is the only thing that could get me intrigued by Dean/Cas, since Castiel is the only character besides Alistair who knows what Dean was really like in Hell. That's really the worst of Dean, the parts he's terrified about anyone else seeing. I think he associates that with hunting and with the darker parts of himself that scared him and that he was ashamed of before his death. I've got a hard time seeing Dean and Castiel ever settling down in a semi-domestic setting, though.

I don't see that with Dean and Jo, either though, now I think about it. Dean knew Jo when she was first getting started, so unless she did something major that removed his need to be protective of her, I don't think he'd ever really relax around her. But Dean and Tamara or Dean and Gwen would work really well for that. Both of them were in their prime and both were very experienced and Gwen at least had gotten her hands very, very dirty. There'd be no fears that she was not seeing the darker parts of him out of nativity or whatever. If Gwen, who knew that he'd tortured in Hell and who had done some pretty dark deeds herself, thought that Dean was a good person, it might have an impact.

If she meant more to him than she did in canon, anyway. Argh.

Finding Dean a love interest whose belief in him he'd find validating that he can settle down with in a combination hunting/domestic lifestyle is hard, yo. D:

ayrt

Yeah, I'm still angry about that. They have this potentially very cool female character, who has had a good reaction from fans (as far as I know) and they just kill her off? After giving her that interesting dilemma of who to trust, now that this guy she's been following has proved to be a major ass? I am disappoint, show.

See, I'm going to have to disagree with you on how well Dean was doing at the beginning of the season - he was living, sure, but he was suppressing a lot and mourning Sam and drinking way too much and keeping his baby under a tarp and never quite fitting in to his new life. But I do agree that if Dean had been in a better place - namely, if Sam had been alive - that he and Lisa could have given it a go, and maybe when Dean caught wind of a hunt in the area he could have called Sam up and they'd have dealt with it together. Something like that.

Mmmm, that's a good point about Dean/Cas! Cas is the only one that we know actually saw him, knife in hand, other than Alastair (and maybe Lilith and Meg). Do you remember if Castiel said anything disparaging about that, about what Dean did? It's been several months since I've watched most of season four. But yeah, having everything exposed and still being accepted could be very powerful (healing?) for Dean.

I didn't see that with Dean and Jo for most of season two - they were always my "one day, off in the future" pairing, after Dean felt ready to settle down and Jo'd had her share of hunting experience. I kind of wanted them to open a roadhouse of their own, and sometimes when a group passing through needing an extra hand they'd rock-paper-scissors over who'd go along with them. But yeah, after Jo died Gwen quickly took that spot (though with less adorableness) and it infuriated me to see yet another of my Dean het ships go down.

It is! Most days I just pretend Jo or Gwen aren't dead/come back, or that he'll meet another cool hunter who's done her own regrettable things one day. I mean, didn't he come one step closer to making peace with himself last episode? If he believed Sam's slate could be wiped clean, he must have believed his own could be too, right?

There was some hate towards Gwen back in 6x01, but to be fair, she wasn't written terribly sympathetically that episode. Fan reaction towards her seemed to warm considerably as the season progressed, though there still aren't really Gwen stans out there or hardcore Gwen/Dean or Sam/Gwen pairing shippers. Overall though, fandom seemed to like her. Or if they disliked her, it was part of disliking the Campbells all together, not because of Gwen herself.

I think Dean was doing fairly well at the start of the season, all things considered. He hadn't given up on freeing Sam and was obviously still drinking too much and was depressed, but he slept under the blankets in jimjams, nonnie! That's such progress compared to how he's been since the start of S4! He seemed to gain honest comfort from being around Lisa and Ben and there was a look of defensive panic on his face when he thought Lisa was breaking up with him in 6x02. He'd cut off a major part of himself re: hunting but Dean seems to have this mentality that he can only have one or the other.

It's just as unhealthy for him to cut out the chance for a domestic life as it is for him to cut out hunting. Maybe more, since he associates hunting with the parts of himself that he loathes.

I'd love to see Dean have a revelation about hunting in general, actually. Something to remind him that there's value and worth in what he does that goes with all the suffering and pain. Make it something he wants to do and voluntarily chooses instead of it being the last resort, the one thing left to him that he has no choice but to accept. It's possible for that to still happen, I think; I mean, that's how he viewed his relationship with Sam in early S5, right? But things have improved there by leaps and bounds since Sam got his soul back.

I'm trying to think, but I definitely can't remember anything disparaging in S4. Maybe in S5? But in S4, Castiel's reaction was one of shock and surprise that Dean didn't think he was worthy of being saved and that was right after he'd pulled Dean from Hell to begin with. He demanded respect but he didn't treat Dean as any worse for what he'd done in Hell. I can't remember Castiel ever holding that against Dean. I think having a partner who knew everything, who had seen the worst of Dean, but who still accepted him and still loved him would be a very powerful healing experience for Dean. I know true healing needs to come from within, but Dean's self loathing is just so strong that an outside catalyst might be helpful to get things started.

There's a reason I'm the nonnie with the kink for Dean/Cas dubcon validation porn, where Castiel is telling Dean all the reasons he's worthy while Dean is all "JUST SHUT UP AND FUCK ME ALREADY" but can't get away from it. Con for the sex, noncon for the validation. Mm.

I never really saw Dean/Jo until S5 and then of course we got so little of Jo before her death. S2!Jo reminded me (and I think Dean as well) of a younger version of Dean himself. The only difference is that Jo seemed to have a stronger calling to the hunt. But she was inexperienced (not bad, just inexperienced. S1!boys were pretty damned inexperienced as well, ffs) and that seemed to cause Dean to view her more as a junior partner than an equal. I could see S5!Jo and Dean falling into that sort of pattern some day though, with their own Roadhouse. I'd see Jo as doing more active hunts than Dean, too.

I'd agree with your final point only Dean's always had more faith in Sam's slate being able to be wiped clean instead of his own. He thought Sam could get out in S1, he refused to assign Sam the blame for his actions in S4 until Sam himself denied him that choice, he refused to blame Sam for what RoboSam did even as Sam himself took on that guilt. Dean's view of Sam is that of a much better person than Dean's view of himself, just like Sam seems to view Dean as a better person than he sees himself as well. These Winchesters kill me, I swear.

I wish they'd introduced someone for Dean earlier. For Dean to get another love interest at this point, I'm just not sure it would work for me. But that's because I'm bitter about loving Dean/Lisa and Dean/Gwen and having both of those pairings cruelly denied to me so recently. I could get into Dean/Tessa, though.

Hm, that might work. As a reaper, she doesn't have clean hands either and she knows what he did in Hell. And yet she still seems to like him! And he likes and respects her as well. There's potential here!

SA

Whoa. Is there no character limit here? But then my long-winged nature will have no bounds! That's dangerous. D:

There's a limit. It's just much bigger than LJ's. 16,000 at DW, 4,300 at LJ.

Yeah, I'm disappointed we didn't see enough of Gwen to get some hardcore Gwen/Winchester shippers. She had so much potential, and her death (and Dean's lack of reaction) still seems pointless.

This is all true! He was doing much better than I'd wanted/expected him to be after a year of knowing Sam was in Hell. But he never let himself settle in, make peace with himself and his past, and as long as that went on (and Sam was in Hell) he was always going to be just okay, imo. More integration of domesticity and hunting would have been good for him, but he didn't give that a try until Sam was already back.

I want the same thing. He seems to have forgotten that it's "Saving people, hunting things," not just hunting things. And I do think it's possible for that to happen. I'm hoping we're working a little more toward it at the end of this season, even.

An outside catalyst would be good for Dean, I'm not sure how much introspection he does. (And for good reasons, I'm sure; he might go back to those ten years of torture every time he lets himself think too much.) Absolution from Castiel could go a long way. Though I agree with your earlier comment: I don't see a happily ever after for the two of them. They're not going to go curtain shopping together.

She was! But that's part of why I liked her. I'm not a big fan of pairings where it's evident from the start that they're going to end up together (even if only for a night). Not that there's anything wrong with them, they're just not my thing. I like pairings where the attraction takes a while to develop, and then kind of hits them by surprise- like with Dean/Jo (from the end of ELAC on), or Dean/Gwen, or Dean/Tessa. I don't know that anyone else could work for me with either of the boys now, not with only one season left and most of my favorite love interests dead or long forgotten. Still, there's hope for Dean/Tessa! Maybe!

Yes, they are both so willing to forgive each other but not themselves! Oh boys. But I did see both of them doing better with that at the end of Unforgiven. At least I hope so. They both deserve to give themselves a break.

LOL I didn't read most of your comment because it seems to be Dean/Cas related but I just wanted to say that the Gwen hate made me laugh so hard.

Say something slightly sarcastic to Dean ONCE and months later there will be EDGs celebrating your death and cheering Dean on for killing you and wishing he'd stand up for himself all the time like he does when he's possessed by an earworm of evol (tbf I don't know if they actually did celebrate Gwen's death but it's just funny to think about.)

there will be EDGs celebrating your death and cheering Dean on for killing you and wishing he'd stand up for himself all the time like he does when he's possessed by an earworm of evol (tbf I don't know if they actually did

...that's an awesome case of unsupported wank you've got going there, nonnie.

The guano is strong with this one.

1. The majority of the comment had nothing to do with Dean/Cas.
2. Gwen and the Campbells were more than "slightly" sarcastic in their hostility to Dean in their first couple of episodes. They were deliberately written as offputting.
3. No EDGs or Dean!girls cheered Gwen's death. The only people I know of who did were extreme bibro fans who want the show to be only about Sam'n'Dean and no one else.
4. People cheering the death of one of the few remaining awesome recurring female characters isn't "funny", it's pathetic.

In short, fail all around.

anon above

Re (1): I just went back and counted. Two paragraphs out of ten were about Dean/Cas. (I agree with the rest of your comment btw, but that's countable). This is... "the majority"? Huh, batshit delusional fans.

sa

Fine fine, they said "most", not "the majority", but also they said "didn't read most of your comment because it seems to be Dean/Cas related" which implies that anywhere from most of the comment to all of the comment seemed (to the anon) to be Dean/Cas related.

/pre-emptive nitpick

Perhaps this is the same person who complains that the occasional five minutes of Cas screentime is "angels taking over the show".

Either the awrt was trolling or they're one of the E*Hs who see any mention of a character or pairing that they can't stand and go massively overboard in reaction to it. What a maroon.

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