spnanonhaven | Regrouping and Backup

Regrouping and Backup - Fandom gossip only

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Did anyone else think that the Sam speech at the end was a bit out of left field? Them having that "spill your guts" talk seemed so inappropriate and shoe-horned in at that moment. It didn't feel right for the moment, with all the shit going on at the time (demon chained to a chair/exorcism).

Yeah, I think so too, it's like Carver thought they need to have some kind of sappy brother talk in the finale so he just shoved it in a random place.

I think it worked with the whole "chaperone" comment setup. I do think Sam relented on the trials a little too easily, though, and I would have liked his speech to have been a bit more apologetic towards Dean instead of mostly self-pitying (imo). Anyway, the whole thing is gonna seem pointless when they inevitably repeat the distrust drama again next year.

IDK, I thought Dean was kind of a dick this episode. His list of suggestions for things Sam might want to ask forgiveness for was extremely cruel, IMO. He seems to have totally forgotten that *Sam* was the victim in the whole soullessness incident. And he's barely seemed to tolerate Sam most of the season, but then the idea of losing him is suddenly the worst thing ever, worth throwing away the lives of everyone else who's died for this quest (Linda, Benny, Sarah Blake, Heaven knows how many innocent possessed people).

Heaven knows how many innocent possessed people

when's the last time they're even touched upon the idea that they're still a victim involved when they kill a demon possessing a person?

The beginning of this season: That episode with Kevin where they went to get his mom and the Trans complained about killing Kevin's mom's friend, and the Winchesters were like, 'if we had just exorcised her, she'd tell Crowley.'

Of course, like, two scenes later, Crowley showed up anyway ...

There was also the argument when Linda herself was possessed.

To be fair, this particular inconsistency isn't really new -- they lost a whole bunch of moral authority on the vessel issue way back in s3 when Bobby "there's an innocent human girl in there" Singer shot Ruby 1 in the chest just to test the Colt.

Yeah, and as far as I'm concerned they lost all the rest of it when they killed Brady. They weren't in a hurry, the demon was no threat, there was no danger of him escaping, he didn't even know anything that was particularly dangerous. Still, they decided to murder Brady along with the demon, and the show treated it like some kind of revenge, even though, you know, Brady the human was not responsible for anything the demon did.

The thing about Brady that made me get it a bit was that Brady's body took what looked like fatal injuries, and in any case he'd been possessed for long enough that there was a good chance, given the ride hard and put away wet thing, that he wouldn't survive. Don't get me wrong, I still thing the exorcism is the right thing, even if the victim immediately dies, they should get a chance to die unpossessed. But I can see killing both for vengeance on the demon as dark but understandable, given that they don't have any way of actually killing a demon if they exorcise it. But then, I didn't think that at that point Sam and Dean were being presented as doing a good or unproblematic thing, since vengeance is pretty much always coded as bad in Spnverse, so to me that one came across as intended darkness rather than carelessness in the characters endorsed by carelessness in the text. Bobby shooting Ruby 1 was just completely casual and gratuitous, with no sense that there was any weight at all, emotional or moral, attached to the act. Which makes sense in the heat of battle when the demon is trying to kill you, but not as target practice.

DA - I agree about Brady. He had been possessed for 5 or 6 years at that point, and had taken massive physical damage. He was virtually certain to be in massive amounts of pain, and unsaveable. I don't think it's the same as some of the ones they've had this season, where people were only possessed briefly and were likely still alive and relatively unscathed (or Ruby 1, for that matter).

If Sam and Dean are on the same side next year fighting something else together instead of each other, I don't care what happened this season. The whole thing can be written off as "Wow, Carver is full of crap and knows absolutely nothing about these characters."

da

Yeah, except it's not like I expect him to know any more about them next year.

If Sam and Dean are on the same side next year fighting something else
together instead of each other, I don't care what happened this season.

Sad, but this is how I feel, too.

Word. I think Dean's self-righteousness is a complicated thing and stems in a lot of ways from his being fucked up and (weirdly) from his low self-esteem, but dude's got some serious work to do on himself and I'm not finding it easy to empathize with him at the moment, let alone like him.

And it's a little weird, because in a lot of ways he's been here before: he had to decide to let Sam make the sacrifice at the end of S5, and he did. He let it be Sam's choice, and now he can't.

And if they'd referenced that, it would have been a lot more forgivable - "I can't lose you again" or something. But no. :(

na

I think this is different than Swan Song. In that episode, it was literally the only chance they had left to get Lucifer back in the Cage and to stop the apocalypse. This time around, they didn't need to do this. The world is not going to be destroyed and a billion people aren't going to die if they don't close the gates of Hell. So what Dean was saying is that they have new tools in their belt to keep on going, and that he didn't think Sam dying was worth it, especially if Sam was sacrificing himself because he didn't want to let Dean down or whatever. I think they were totally different circumstances, and this time made sense. Plus, it was still Sam's choice in the end. He chose to stop.

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