spnanonhaven | #91

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show & fandom

#91 - honc

This post is for show discussion and fandom gossip only. NO ACTOR GOSSIP, NO ACTOR BASHING!!
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da

They're objecting to the idea that it was Jess' JOB to arrange a cake for Sam. Sure, it's plausible that she might have done so, but a number of comments on the subject have suggested that the idea that Jess didn't bake Sam birthday cakes diminishes their relationship.

ayrt

Well, yes. Because we know very little about Jess and one of the very few things that we do know is that she baked. So the concept that she wouldn't have either made or somehow provided a cake does diminish Sam/Jess because it goes directly against one of those very small things that we do know about them.

Plus it ties into the whole general theme that Amelia is Sam's "the one" and that no one else has mattered as much as Amelia has. Carver has given interviews calling Amelia the love of Sam's life, ffs. You don't think that diminishes the role Jess played?

lol now you're a EJessG lol Carver is driving you crazy.

ayrt

I guess so. Carver gets me all defensive for both Jess and Lisa, given how dismissive he's been of both of them and their roles in Sam and Dean's lives. I like most of the other stuff he's done, but I get all teeth gnashy at how Jess and Lisa have been discussed (or not, depending).

ayrt

I don't think Amelia getting Sam a birthday cake elevates his relationship with her and I don't think Jess not getting him one diminishes his relationship with her (if this indeed never happened, which I don't have a position on, though I have said elsewhere in this thread that I think the 8.03 flashback is not indicative one way or another). I don't think birthday cakes are particularly important, I don't think Jess baking once means that every other bit of characterization we have on her must somehow involve baking, and I don't think having a skill obligates you to employ it on your partner's birthday. I knit, and write, and cook, and I have knit and written and cooked for my girlfriend, but never for her birthday. This doesn't mean I don't love her, it means we're doing other shit that day.

ayrt

And that's fine. But that's you and that isn't the experience of other people. We're also talking about a TV character who had incredibly little development, not a real person. You get to take narrative shortcuts with TV characters that you wouldn't expect of real people because the real people are real.

Honestly, I don't see what the big problem is with having the assumption that a person who likes to bake would bake something for her boyfriend's birthday. Or just get him a cupcake or something, since she apparently likes baked goods.

DA

But you are deducing something from one instance, making it your headcanon, and then getting angry with show for violating your headcanon WHEN IN FACT THERE IS NOTHING IN 8.3 THAT EVEN DOES VIOLATE YOUR HEADCANON.

This is stupider than chair!wank, and I never thought I'd say that.

da

what was chair!wank about?

da

Remember 7.2, how Sam was sitting down while Dean was standing up and asking him about seeing Lucifer? There was a whole wank about whether Dean had, like, intentionally put Sam in a submissive position so as to interrogate him. It started about here: http://spnanonhaven.livejournal.com/16713.html?thread=78669641#t78669641

ayrt

Thanks nonnie!

*off to read.

It is still one of my greatest griefs that chair!wank and Ikea!wank couldn't have been combined into a single, glorious meltdown over whether the chair Sam sat submissively in was from Ikea.

Especially since all the Ikea furniture has names, so Dean could be like "You're gonna sit in the Kaustby now, Sam, and I'm gonna shine this light in your eyes and ask you some questions about Lucifer."

ayrt

I believe you mean, "I'm gonna shine this Hektar floor lamp in your eyes." :D And as one of the participants in Ikea!wank, I share your sorrow that the two could not have been combined. Of course, the wank would probably have been that Sam shouldn't be sitting in an Ikea chair since there isn't an Ikea in South Dakota and so obviously the episode was unrealistic and impossible to enjoy.

No! Not the Hektar floor lamp! Mercy!

don't forget round two of the chair!wank - http://spnanonhaven.livejournal.com/16713.html?thread=79179337#t79179337

To me, that's the real wanky thread. The initial chair!wank just seemed to be a lot of needless pedantry.

na

Oh god. That one comment reminding me how we argued about "tickle attacks". I can't decide whether I want to delve further into the ~memories~.

ayrt

Honestly, I don't see what the big problem is with having the assumption that a person who likes to bake would bake something for her boyfriend's birthday. Or just get him a cupcake or something, since she apparently likes baked goods.

There's no problem with the assumption that a person who likes to bake would bake something for her boyfriend's birthday. That's a perfectly reasonable notion. The problem is reacting to the possibility that she might not have (which supposition I maintain is pure fanwank of the most reactionary and unsupportable kind, but whatever) by rending your garments about how Jess' relationship with Sam is ruined forever.

As the anon above me points out, Jess baking for Sam's birthday is headcanon. You can support it from the text, but it is not in the text. Jess NOT baking for Sam's birthday is also headcanon, and if anything I would say there is drastically less support for it in the text -- this entire absurd wank grew out of a question asked by a character who by all appearances was just teasing. Essentially what I am doing here is watching you have a fight with yourself over which woman scores the most Relationship Points (subtype: baked goods) with Sam.

DA

Do you bake? Because baking cookies is not at all the same thing as baking a cake. Which doesn't even go into whether Jess would have considered a cake necessary to celebrate a birthday. Would their relationship still be ~diminished~ if she baked him cookies for his birthday? We know she likes to dress up as a nurse, too. Would you insist that she must have role-played nurse games with him in the bedroom, because of it?

ayrt

I do bake, yes. And, frankly, it's really not that much different to me to bake a simple cake than it is to bake chocolate chip cookies. There are a few more ingredients and the batter is more liquid, but it's the same general principle.

Frankly, I find your whole nurse thing to be really distasteful and so I'm not going to bother with it.

AYRT

It's not about the ingredients, but about how likely it is that making cookies means that someone also enjoys making cakes given the different effort involved and the different results.

If you find it distasteful, then you should understand why people object to the idea that Jess was a lesser girlfriend if she didn't bake Sam a birthday cake.

It's not about the ingredients, but about how likely it is that making cookies means that someone also enjoys making cakes given the different effort involved and the different results.

Holy shit, meme. If this nonnie's account is true, this is the most ridiculous wank ever.

Also, nonnie, are you looking for a Bayesian analysis here?

The probability that people like to bake cakes if they also like to bake cookies is WAY higher than the baseline general-population probability for liking to bake cakes.

da

I believe this can only really be settled with a science thread. Though, technically, only if Jess participates. And Amelia, of course!

Amelia hates the way you have to spoon out each goddamned cookie (and ships Dean/Cas/Benny) and once had a bad experience with some cookies expanding over the edge of the tray and burning on the oven floor. Jess hates the way cakes take twice as long in the oven when their electricity bill is already too high because of Sam's long showers (and ships Sam/Dean but only if Sam promises to tell her all about it), and the fine line between a cooked centre and a dry edge.

/E-cookiebaking-G and E-cakebaking-H.

AYRT

If this nonnie's account is true, this is the most ridiculous wank ever.

I'm not sure what you mean, but my comment that you quoted was solely part of the discussion of the AIRT's assertion that "Because we know very little about Jess and one of the very few things that we do know is that she baked. So the concept that she wouldn't have either made or somehow provided a cake does diminish Sam/Jess because it goes directly against one of those very small things that we do know about them." and not an encapsulation of the entire thread and/or wank.

If you're under the impression that I'm arguing that statistically Jess is unlikely to enjoy baking cakes, maybe you should lay off the flat-viewing for awhile.

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

#91 - honc

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