spnanonhaven

Entry tags:

show & fandom

#84

This post is for show discussion and fandom gossip only. NO ACTOR GOSSIP, NO ACTOR BASHING!!
THIS JOURNAL LOGS IPS.
Backup location:

spnanonhaven

RULES:
1. No posting f-locked content.
2. No linking between RL and online identities.
3. Keep the actor gossip to these posts or take it to

spn_gossip.
4. Keep spoilery information out of thread titles.
5. No embedding music.
6. Embedded images must be SFW.

KEY:
AYRT = "I am the anon you're replying to." | DA = "I am a different anon from the one you're replying to, and already commented somewhere else on this thread."
NA = "I'm a new anon who has not commented on this thread before." | SA = "I'm the same anon, replying to my own comment to edit/elaborate."
AIRT = "The anon I replied to." | ITT = "In this thread." | OP = "Original post / original poster."

american bald eagle - image source

Off-Topic | Fanworks Discussion | Reference | Flatview

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

A codependent!boys fan smashed into Carver's decorative duck mailbox with their car and ruined for all of us. That or...I got nothing. I'm just bummed over his total about-face. :(

I'm middle of the road in codependent v independent (I like the thought of a gencesty commuting marriage or something), but I'm getting saddened by the fact that the writers and showrunner and producers don't really seem to be talking about Sam and Dean as people who are close to each other and love each other deeply despite their issues. I'm fine with them having to figure out ways to love each other and be close that involve some different choices and different priorities and compromise and each having his own life, but the way Carver here for instance is discussing it seems so cold. United by a shared goal doesn't really cut it; I'd rather they had different goals but were united by affection and understanding.

/cheesey and sad

da

It's like they decided to give aspects of what the independent!boys and the codependent!boys fans wanted and wound up pissing off both sides in the process. Codependent!boys fans wanted Sam and Dean together and needing only each other; independent!boys wanted Sam and Dean to be healthy and have their own space and not need each other to thrive. So now we've got independent!Sam and codependent!Dean and neither of them is happy.

da

LOL I think you are exactly right. It's like, even the (non-trolling) nonnies who, pre-spoilers, were wishing for Sam with the wife and kids and apple pie life as endgame wanted it to be while Dean was hunting and happy and visiting all the time or running Singer Salvage next door. Instead, we get Sam only getting the happy normal life...because Dean disappeared and Sam didn't have to feel guilty about abandoning him anymore. Or something. LOL. And then the people who were desperate to reunite the brothers and were bitching about D/C in purgatory now get their quick reunion, but it's fraught with resentment and mistrust and lies, and one of them not even wanting to be there.

Go Carver, you troll.

Sam not wanting to live a harsh dangerous life anymore doesn't mean he resents Dean. People can twist the spoilers all they want but it doesn't say anywhere Sam's unhappy Dean is back.

ayrt

Sam finally got his normal life because he didn't feel guilty anymore about abandoning his family. Dean returns and draws him back into the hunter life, even though Sam isn't into it. Sam suddenly has reason again to "feel guilty" about not going with Dean i.e. abandoning him. I'm not saying that this interpretation is right and that Sam staying out of hunting is abandoning Dean, but if you listen to what Jared's been saying about the reason that Sam is finally able to get his normal life, than it would make sense that bringing a gung-ho hunter Dean back would revert the dynamics back to before Sam had his normal life. And now that Sam has experienced a year of this happy life, being drawn out of it is sure to cause some sort of resentment, even if it's internalized.

ayrt

See, now I feel really sorry for the high proportion of independent!boys fans who wanted Dean to be the settled one while Sam continued to hunt. XD They don't get anything that they wanted. I guess the same goes for the codependent!boys fans who wanted Sam to be All About Dean?

Oh man, well played, Carver. Well played!

ayrt

I think a lot of people were tricked at one of those last cons when Jared said that they were going to get the chance to "re-do" something that they didn't get to do last time, thinking that he meant that Sam was going to save Dean like he couldn't last time. I feel like how I felt when S4 started (after a hiatus full of gorgeous Sam-saves-Dean fic) and we realized that we weren't getting anything even resembling that. Shell shock! Haha

ayrt

It seems silly to feel "tricked" but I agree. When you've got a situation where Dean is in peril in another dimension and Sam just watched him go there, most people will think that the chance to "re-do" something will involve Sam saving Dean. I'm not sure exactly what they're getting to "re-do" differently here at all. The bare bones set up feels very similar to the start of S4, right down to Sam having a romantic entanglement while Dean's away and something not human (and not necessarily to be trusted) being what gets Dean out.

ayrt

I just mean tricked in the sense that people (okay, me and most of my friends lol!) got excited by what Jared might have been implying, and I think we wanting Sam to save Dean so badly that we got our hopes up way too high, and these spoilers are dashing them all over the rocks ha. It does feel like a weird combination of S1 and S4, but with all the worst qualities about those seasons, and none of the good, plus the total lack of acknowledgment of the character development and maturation of the past few seasons. I do think the S/D dynamic was getting stale, but I think the writers could have found a lot of other ways to energize it, especially utilizing the great promise of the purgatory storyline

ayrt

You say nothing here that I disagree with, nonnie! I'm in the exact same boat of having been excited over what Jared said because it seemed really reasonable to assume he was talking about the chance to save Dean (though really, we should have guessed otherwise in retrospect since Jared never seems to say exciting things about Sam'n'Dean XD).

S1 and S4, but all of the bad and none of the good, yes! Complete with Sam apparently only sticking around because the "very personal" quest happens to be one he's on board with, not because he wants to be with Dean. I really want to know what this mysterious power source is and how it connects with the early seasons.

I agree that S7 was particularly stale but there's so many ways they could have gone here that I don't know why they'd do a retread of the same old tired issues. I get what Edlund was saying here about lying and I can almost respect that, but it feels extra frustrating to go that route at the same time that they're also reusing the "someone drags someone else back into hunting and no one is happy about it" deal.

ayrt

Oh, nonnie, you and I are speaking the same language. I know that it's pointless to even be wanking this three days later, because Carver obviously doesn't give a fuck about what fandom wants (which, more power to him, whatever), but I just can't get over how deeply disappointed I am in the direction they are heading.

In particular, even though S7 had massive issues, there were still some things that I thought they did well with. One of those was the lying issue, and frankly I thought part of the point of the entire Amy storyline was for them to realize that lying to each other is bad. I mean, they even gave Dean lines about how lying to Sam felt wrong and that he didn't want to do it anymore. That felt like progress, and Edlund can psycho-analyze it all he wants, but taking away hard-won progress like that feels wrong.

See, now I feel really sorry for the high proportion of independent!boys fans who wanted Dean to be the settled one while Sam continued to hunt.

Nah, they annoyed me because it's kind of clear they were just playing favorites and pushing the partyline oh Sam's totes embraces being a hunter now when truth is he was accepting of it rather than choosing it because he wants to. Hah! In their face tbh.

...wut.

I'm saying those fans didn't give a fuck about what Sam wants but pretending otherwise. Lame ass EDGs.

da

Agreed. I think some of these EDG's only care about what Dean wants and what will make Dean and only Dean happy. They don't care about what Sam wants and what will make him happy.

da

Let's see, we've got classic double carriage and quick agreement with a very wanky comment. So, troll?

NA

So anyone who doesn't agree with you is a troll, right?

Oh, nonnie. You make it too easy.

Re: Ben Edlund interview--confirms our fears

(Anonymous) - 2012-07-18 15:31 (UTC) - Expand

Re: Ben Edlund interview--confirms our fears

(Anonymous) - 2012-07-18 15:32 (UTC) - Expand

Re: Ben Edlund interview--confirms our fears

(Anonymous) - 2012-07-18 15:33 (UTC) - Expand

the mods can check IP to see it was two different anons. There are a lot of Sam fans restuntful of the way he's been treated on the show/fandom on the meme, what makes you think it's just one of us trolling and impossible that someone else could agree? lol

*resentful

WTF are you going on about? "The mods" don't report back to meme on who's saying what.

Re: Ben Edlund interview--confirms our fears

(Anonymous) - 2012-07-19 13:09 (UTC) - Expand

da

I've often wondered if this nonnie is some sort of performance art thing, because they're so obvious and they usually ignore people who call them out on anything other than the content of their comments (such as talking to themselves). Breathtakingly impressive if so: the characterization and "voice" are highly consistent, distinctive, and hilarious.

Re: Ben Edlund interview--confirms our fears

(Anonymous) - 2012-07-18 15:39 (UTC) - Expand

na

To be fair, Sam and Dean are fictional characters and not real people. They can't 'want' anything or feel emotions.

da

You're ignoring a lot of really excellent meta from people who explicitly wanted to see Sam in a situation that would cause him to find actual value in hunting and begin to actively choose it again instead of just being resigned to it.

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only