spnanonhaven

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#84

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da

I think you're right that Sam really moved beyond the role of protected little brother in S2, but it was only on one level. Over and over again, the plot cycled back to something being wrong with Sam (again) and Dean needing to step up and figure it out and save it. On a meta level, it puts Sam right back into the "protected little brother" role.

Agreed to no end about the ball on Dean's growth being dropped. I think they were trying for something in S6 with darker!Dean and, at times, they actually succeeded. S6 was the only time since S4 that we had any exploration of Dean's time in Hell and I really enjoyed that. We had far more references to Dean torturing but there were also hints at him as a victim as well. The problem was that by the end of the season, it went from a fairly balanced look to Dean behaving in a way that seemed almost unbelievable and was so grossly unsympathetic that it drove away his fans. Then S7 came along and even that much was dropped. If anything, Dean regressed and became almost unrecognizable, right before turning completely stagnant.

da

Man, I only love Dean even more lately, so it's interesting to see this "Dean's characterization driving away his fans" because I haven't seen any of my Deangirl friends feel that way. Not saying they aren't there, of course, but it's interesting.

I agree with this comment, though, they dropped the ball on his growth and exploration when it was right there in front of them, as well as pushing Sam into the little brother role.

ayrt

I still love him, more than ever even, but I don't like him. There's been a lot of Dean!girls talking on meme over S7 about how they dislike his current characterization. I've seen a lot of people comment about how they don't feel like writing Dean-centric fic because he's either unsympathetic or uninteresting to them, too.

Of the Dean!girls on my flist who are still active, there's two who are still enthused about his character and current characterization and a half dozen who are pissed off about it and dislike how he's been written for the past year and a half. Meme's even discussed it often enough that the break in characterization seems focused at 6.06 for a lot of people. There might be only ~6 or so angry Dean girls on my flist these days but that's discounting the high volume of others who just moved onto greener pastures or dropped out of fandom entirely but might comment on someone else's post about how Dean with statements expressing their displeasure.

It's just my own experience and all but it isn't one that seems at all unusual to me. I thought it was fairly well established that Dean's characterization had driven away a lot of his fans.

ayrt

I like him very much, too. I find him extremely sympathetic and that the show has given him a very short straw by giving him all this trauma and no outlet to deal. People have been pushing him to "get over it" and "take care of these problems and ignore what's going on with you" for the most part, so of course he's going to have serious issues. I dunno, I find him more sympathetic than any of the other characters and I feel for him a great deal. All of my fic lately has been Dean-centric.

I don't take meme for an accurate representation. I'm not trying to throw numbers out but I have about forty Dean fans on my flist and they all feel pretty similarly. It's meme's conclusion that Dean's characterization has driven away his fans, I've never seen it anywhere else.

ayrt

It's the common thing that comes up on my flist whenever discussions of Dean come up, it isn't just at meme. And there's overall been so much less Dean-centric fanworks that it's hard for me to understand how anyone could think the interest in his character is the same as it was in S4 or even S5.

Dean went back to torturing. He wiped Lisa and Ben's memories after abandoning them and refusing to take their calls. He killed Amy for killing for the sake of her child and then in the very next episode let a couple of mass murdering witches off with mere couple's therapy. He went on a revenge based quest when he'd never before been a character focused on revenge. His primary plot last season was an unresolved one focusing on alcoholism. None of this is sympathetic to me.

My fic is all still Dean-centric but it's not set in the current seasons. Current!Dean leaves me cold. I still love him but I long for his characterization to change, preferably in a way that doesn't just handwave what's happened before.

ayrt

I don't know what to tell you, I guess? I find him very sympathetic. You don't. That's totally fine, it's all good! I haven't noticed a big decrease in Dean output myself, but maybe we just hang out in different corners judging by our flists :)

na

EDGs are always complaining about Dean getting the shaft and his alcohol/depression storyline. They wanted him to be more part of the mytharc and got plot oriented storyline and put all the blame on Sam stealing the spotlight. I took one look at imdb and went running. *shudders* So plenty of Dean fans are definitely unhappy about something.

ayrt

Okay...? IMDB isn't exactly a reputable forum. And that sounds more like being unhappy with the plot rather than characterization.

Really, I'm just saying this is a YMMV thing.

Alcohol and depression is part of Dean's characterization. They just have this thing an transferring all their unhappiness and blame on the writers, Sam, and Sere Gamble because she's a huge Sam!girl in their eyes.

ayrt

Again, that's being angry with how the writers have "messed up" with Dean, not fans being mad about what Dean has changed through his own means. It's different. I'm not sure why you're telling me all of this? I don't really care what people think on IMDB because it is not a reputable forum.

na

I suppose it's a good day for Sera Gamble haters. From what I've seen, she wasn't mentioned during CC at all.

anon you're talking about

Being frustrated with Dean's storyline or wanting him as a part of the mytharc makes someone an EDG these days? That's impressive considering the wide swath of fandom (and not just Dean!girls) who are annoyed with it.

You'll note though that I didn't say anything about Sam "stealing" anything. I've been defending him in this thread and talking about how sympathetic I find him. Sam's the best thing about the show right now.

I was calling them EDGs because those type blatantly were and also very much ESH. What are you getting mad about? If it doesn't describe you then I wasn't talking about you.

ayrt

You were though, since you were responding to a comment that was about me and saying it was explained because of EDG-ness. Or something.

Otherwise, your comment makes even less sense. You seem to be saying the only people who are frustrated with Dean's characterization right now are EDGs which is just blatantly false. Given the other things you've said, however, your primarily purpose here seems to be to stir up wank and so I'll be ignoring you from this point on.

You don't make any sense to me either. You pick a fight with me when I wasn't at all hostile to you and then call me a wanky shit stirrer. Ok.

other anon you responded to

I can assure you the ayrt is pretty spot on.

That's called dogpiling someone. Not cool.

da

I'm so happy that Sam has grown out of the little brother to Dean role. I got so sick of it. I hate how Sam was constant;y treated like a baby, even into S7. The guy is almost 30. Have him grow up, evolve, grow some independence and have his own identity. And break Sam's codependence with Dean. I'm a huge fan of independent!Sam.

Hi, you! I'm almost beginning to feel a certain affection for your highly predictable contributions.

I've started to think of that anon as ELIZA!nonnie: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ELIZA

da

I saw their post on the "lol stupid Destiel tumblr fans" and almost felt a twinge of affection. They're so dedicated to their art that they're almost charming.

da

I think that was someone else, actually.

ayrt

I guess you're a fan of Sam being treated like a child and infantilized when he's almost 30? Well, sorry that you are, but I'm not, thank you very much. it stifles Sam's character growth and has for the past few seasons.

I want Sam to have diapars, belt AND bondage. I'm a very demanding Samfan.

I think that switching from the pacifier to the belt was a major step in his maturing, though. There's real growth there.

Grow up, seriously.

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#84

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