spnanonhaven

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#84

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da

I don't disagree with you, but that's not how it's been the past several years with the side characters.

I can think of lots of characters who have allowed new angles of both Sam and Dean to come through. Lisa, Jo, Ruby just off the top of my head. (I will forever pine for a world where Ruby was right and survived, and that deals with the fall out for Sam).

Through Castiel we've seen lots and lots of tiny bits of characterization of both Sam and Dean, which we wouldn't have if he hadn't been a significant presence in the story - because they both interact on a much different level with Castiel than they do with each other.

I don't think the angels sidelined Sam and Dean at all. As for the apocalypse, my problem with it is more about a failure of execution and that it actually wasn't large enough to feel like a real apocalypse.

took over and sidelined Sam and Dean from their own story and if tptb are finally starting to realize that, I'm all for it.

In no way do I think the line about her not being a threat has anything to do with what you're saying. I think it's an idea that's expressed fairly often especially in scifi/fantasy, and is more about women and how they're perceived than Sam and Dean and their presence in the story.

I think we NEED at little bit of the focus to go back to the Winchesters and their relationship so it's about them again and not some big angel war in heaven.

I think the seasons where the angel wars were going on were definitely season where there was a huge emphasis on Sam and Dean and their relationship, so I'm not sure where you're going there.

Yeah, them being the meatsuits for WWF Angel Smackdown was all about them? Castiel's little heaven civil war was about them?

Tell me what insight Lisa brought to Sam? Or Jo brought to Sam? And sorry, but Ruby's death wasn't prolonged or bloody or soon enough for me. (Interesting that you picked a bunch of love interests. Or was that on purpose?) I don't think the show needs more love interests. It need more well-rounded characters period, irregardless of gender. Gender shouldn't be the most important thing about the side characters.

Yeah, and why didn't Ava develop Dean more? **shakes fist**

You are just being wanky, nonnie. The ayrt mentioned Castiel as well as Ruby, Jo and Lisa, who probably were mentioned because they were all recurring characters with significant interactions with a brother. And the ayrt was responding to the idea that the show doesn't need developed secondary characters.

So again. You are being wanky.

I disagree, so I'm the one being wanky? I've already given my opinion about Castiel. Good to know that anyone who doesn't toe the party Cas/het stan line gets called names around here.

You were deliberately skirting around the ayrt's points and inserting random love interest umbrage. No one called anyone any names.

This is when we call it a night. Night nonnie!

I'm the anon who brought up Lisa/Jo/Ruby

I'll give you that I like Castiel. I don't really care if you don't like him particularly - it's his place in the story that I'm supporting. That is, a character who has meaningful, multiple interactions with either Dean or Sam or both of them. I um, don't really know what being a 'het stan' really entails, nor what is has to do with. I'm guessing you mean someone who wants the brothers in heterosexual relationships? It doesn't matter to me if they are in them or not - I mostly am just looking for an interesting story. So I don't really care if you are toeing some sort of line or other?

I thought what we were discussing was the value of supporting characters in terms of Sam, Dean and also in terms of the relationship between Sam and Dean. I didn't think we were discussing shipping?

Well, then I guess I misunderstood you, because the secondary characters you brought up were Jo, Ruby, Lisa and Castiel who all feature pretty darn heavily in "shipping."

Ellen interacted with them both, Gabriel, YED, Bobby, Crowley, Mary etc. and none of them brought any shipper baggage that the characters you chose as your examples do. I thought you were the one bringing shipping into it.

ayrt

Nope :) But if you want to talk about supporting characters in general, I'd love to.

You really, really need to go back to goss, but it sounds like you already figured that out.

ayrt

It need more well-rounded characters period, irregardless of gender. Gender

I think the show needs more well-rounded characters, regardless of gender, too. I just also think the way to do that is to actually spend some time on them and develop them. And I don't think the way to go about doing that is by starting off with the cynical view that the female characters are either love interests and 'in the way' or they're fun, interesting characters. People can be both, you know?

Interesting that you picked a bunch of love interests. Or was that on purpose?

Uh, well I also picked Castiel, so? I first mentioned those three because I remember really liking/being interested in their interactions with Sam and/or Dean. Lisa might not have had too much to do with Sam, but she had an entire arc with Dean. And through Jo we got to see a softer, more vulnerable side of Dean just in season 7. A side that I at the time thought might get explored, so he could start to heal. But then, I got to take that insight into him from that episode, and use it to view the interactions between Sam and Dean.

a AYRT rt

Well, clearly, I should have refreshed a little more often and just given this a +1.

+1

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#84

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