spnanonhaven

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#84

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da

I don't think people would need to be killed with the Colt or the knife or be burned to go to Purgatory. Purgatory was set up as where the souls of non-humans went, that's all.

My head canon is that if you're killed with the Colt (and maybe the knife) then you're burned out completely, no Purgatory, no nothing. Just flat out gone. I'd give that up if it meant we got more YED though!

As much as I loved some of the demons we lost, I'd be super disappointed if they suddenly formulated a loophole to bring them back after basing so many years of canon around the Winchesters' quest to be able to kill a demon for good.

ayrt

IDK. I mean, it's not like they haven't found ways to keep YED current in the canon, you know? It would be no different to me to bring him back, or Ruby, or Alistair than it would be to bring John or Mary back. They've each in their own way had just as much of an impact on the story and on Sam and Dean.

Though I suppose there's a difference to me between bringing YED back or Alistair, Lilith, or Ruby. YED was killed with the Colt and I like the idea that death by Colt is a true, soul death. But there's nothing to say that Sam's powers or the knife causes a death of the soul, so it wouldn't bother me nearly as much if Alistair or Ruby, or even Casey came back, especially if they couldn't leave Purgatory for whatever reason and so had a limited role to play.

ayrt

It's not really that, it's more like the effect it'd have on past canon for me... I don't know if I'm explaining right. Kind of like, in S4 when they introduced Mary as a hunter, I liked it because it was expanding on an unknown aspect of canon. To me, this would be more like rewriting something that was a solid, indisputable fact for years now. It'd be like if they decided to make it that Sam or Dean wasn't really John's son or something. Not enhancing history, but rewriting what we knew to be true.

It'd probably bother me less if they made a distinction between the knife and the Colt that way, but it'd still irk me in the way that them doing things like introducing the demon bone-burning death or demonic invisicreeping did. Where I just sit there thinking "Oh, well that's random and convenient."

ayrt

It's funny, because it feels exactly like the reveal of Mary to me. It isn't contradicted by previous canon and it slots into place to make sense. Plus Alistair! Casey! Ruby! So many unresolved plot points and emotional storylines, so little time! It's a golden opportunity, it's just one that I don't think the writers will actually take advantage of.

Besides, there are other monsters who have played a major role here. Would bringing Madison back be any different than bringing Ruby back, in terms of "we killed it completely and now it's back again"?

The bone-burning death thing annoyed me right until it came out that it doesn't work after all. Or at least, that's the impression I got, since Crowley survived it. Demonic invisicreeping makes sense to me since some demons can teleport, too.

I hope if they do go that way, they don't bring YED back. Much as I love him (he's my favorite demon!), having the difference between the knife/Sam's powers and the Colt makes sense to me.

da

But there's nothing to say that Sam's powers or the knife causes a death of the soul

WRT to Sam's powers: I always thought he was just exorcising them. Because we always see the smoke coming out and sinking into the ground. When they're killed with the Colt or the knife, that doesn't happen.

WRT to the knife: I think that would also cause a soul death. It's always known for being the thing that KILLS demons. Sending them back to hell is never considered killing them.

ayrt

Sam only exorcised demons until Alistair, who he actually killed. He killed Lilith, too, at a minimum.

With the knife and the Colt, when a demon is stabbed, they kind of light up from within. The Colt goes a step further and does that skull flashy thing and YED's eyes even formed skulls, I think? The flashing with the Colt is also brighter and paler than the flashing with the knife, which is more muddled and reddish.

It kills demons, yes, but we're not talking about them going back to Hell. We're talking about if they could end up in Purgatory (since they aren't human and that's where non-humans go when they die), which I see as possible with Sam's powers and with the knife - though maybe not with the Colt. :)

ayrt

Oh, yeah, my bad on Sam's powers. Totally forgot that.

I dunno about Purgatory counting as death, though. It seems to me to be the same general concept as hell.

I dunno, this is stirring up a whole mess of questions. At what point does a tortured soul actually become a demon? Are they really not human anymore? How are they able to climb out of hell?

ayrt

Purgatory is an afterlife and from the sounds of it, a not very pleasant place. I think it's supposed to resemble Hell, which makes sense with the Dantean imagery they like to go for. The whole Midway upon the journey of our life / I found myself within a forest dark /For the straightforward pathway had been lost thing, you know?

But it isn't Hell. Or at least, it isn't the Hell that we saw for Dean and Sam - no endless void with only chains, no endless fires. It's a gloomy, dark forest inhabited by glowing red eyes - presumably the souls of the dead monsters we've heard about. It's not a place where humans are supposed to end up and what we've seen of it isn't pleasant, but I don't think it's supposed to be a direct analogy to Hell. It's the afterlife for monsters - or at least, for non-humans. And demons and angels both count as non-humans.

As for your other questions, IDK. John didn't seem to be a demon when he crawled out of Hell after a year. Dean didn't seem to be a demon either despite 40 years downstairs. He might have been on his way to becoming one, but there's never been anything to indicate that he'd actually crossed over. Demons aren't human, but they used to be human. Just like angels can tear out their grace and become human, but they aren't themselves human. I see it as three different species, just linked together.

As for how they can climb out, it sounds like particularly powerful demons can go between Hell and Earth on their own (YED, Alistair, Lilith) while others (Ruby, Meg) have a much harder time with it once they're exorcised. Or maybe it's that exorcism is a binding ritual of some sort - it's not just that you're kicking their pass back to the pit, it's also that you're locking the door after them and they've got to be summoned to make it back.

I always thought that once topside, a demon could summon other demons but that until S1, it was rare that any would do so. Bobby even says something about that in Devil's Trap, about how there were maybe 1-2 possessions a year until S1, and then there were like a dozen of them, maybe more. I don't remember the exact numbers, but clearly there weren't a lot of demons until Azazel started the ball rolling and even then, it wasn't until he opened the Devil's Gate to Hell and released hundreds of them that demons became the threat that they are currently.

DA

WRT the knife: I think there could be a distinction between killing them (can't return to Hell, instead goes to Monster afterlife, ie, purgatory) and killing them (wiping them out from all existence in all dimensions).

Like the AYRT, I always assumed the Colt killed things from all existence: "soul death" or however you want to put it, but the knife was a regular death. Like how people die and go to heaven or hell. With the knife, if you die as a demon, you go to purgatory like any monster, including former humans (vampires, etc.), which is why it doesn't send them back to hell.

ayrt

It's definitely possible. I just always thought of the knife as extra-special like the Colt. We don't have the long history like we do for the Colt, but the fact that no one else seems to have ever heard of killing a demon makes it seem to me like it's a special case, like demons don't normally ever die.

other anon in the subthread

I thought that the knife was special, too. Alistair is very intrigued by it when he gets his hands on it, I think he even calls it exquisite?

I figure the knife came first and the Colt was like the upgrade that happened later. So the knife is special - being able to kill a demon and prevent them from being able to return to Earth is pretty damn impressive and a rare thing to come across - but Colt's version improved on it even more.

The knife is watered down compared to the Colt, too. The Colt could have killed Alistair, for instance, but the knife barely singed him. Made him uncomfortable and clearly hurt but it didn't make him pause at all. The Colt probably could kill an angel too, if Lucifer's comment about it being able to kill all but four things is true, but the knife didn't even make Cas blink.

So maybe the Colt is based on the same magic or technology that the knife uses? But a higher version of it, capable of working on more things and more effectively.

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#84

Re: John's and Mary's absence from heaven (small spoilers)

Re: John's and Mary's absence from heaven (small spoilers)

Re: John's and Mary's absence from heaven (small spoilers)

Re: John's and Mary's absence from heaven (small spoilers)

Re: John's and Mary's absence from heaven (small spoilers)

Re: John's and Mary's absence from heaven (small spoilers)

Re: John's and Mary's absence from heaven (small spoilers)

Re: John's and Mary's absence from heaven (small spoilers)

Re: John's and Mary's absence from heaven (small spoilers)

Re: John's and Mary's absence from heaven (small spoilers)

Re: John's and Mary's absence from heaven (small spoilers)

Re: John's and Mary's absence from heaven (small spoilers)