spnanonhaven

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#84

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ayrt

To me, he comes off as a deus ex machine, who only comes into save the boys when something bad happens or needs fixing. That isn't interesting to me at all. I want the boys to save themselves more frequently without Castiel having to angel wipe absolutely all of Sam and Dean's problems whenever they pray to him. And for the past almost 4 seasons, that's all Castiel has been good for, super fixing all of Sam and Dean's problems quickly. I missed the old days of the Winchester's figuring out things for themselves without the help of Castie (and angels). Overall, I'm sick of the whole angels storyline period.

Yeah this. I want my smart!Winchesters back. :/

da

The ones who found all their "lore" from ridiculous websites?

da

These kinds of comments I find all the more baffling after seasons six and seven.

A deus ex machina es essentially when there's an unsolvable problem and BOOM contrivance allows it to be solved. It isn't having a super powerful angel on your side.

Because when they have a super powerful angel on their side, he tends to have a personality of his own, and desires, agendas, agency of his own as well. So SOMETIMES he is there to help them out (send them to the past and pull them back out) many other times he isn't. FOR INSTANCE - tearing down Sam's wall. That was an action taken by a developed character, not by a deus ex machina.

Taking Sam's hell damage was not a deus ex machina action. Because it would have been an out of the blue, just in the nick of time, save that had no relevancy to the plot. INSTEAD, it was done as part of an arc between Sam and Castiel.

ayrt

OK, but I still didn't like the storyline, because I feel that it robbed Sam of the ability to deal with his own storyline. I felt like the writers used Castiel just to be lazy with Sam and his storyline. Castiel is just not relevant to me anymore. He stopped being relevant for me after season 5.

HDU, Castiel is totes what saved the show and made it just better and better since season 4!

I disagree completely. I thought season 4 was the beginning of the downhill for Supernatural.

da

Ok, this is funny.

Pssst, the ayrt was kidding.

ayrt

From a narrative point of view, I have to disagree with you. Castiel wasn't some random baddie who tore down the wall. He was their friend, and he betrayed them. It makes sense to bring him back around to fix what he broke, make amends, etc. It makes it (slightly) more character-driven rather than plot driven. Otherwise, it might be a series of vaguely related plot points without the character's decisions tying them together.

So he might not be relevant to you but - taking away the plot and looking at it from a characterization point of view - there was a season or two setting him up as a friend, then a season of that friendship collapsing ending with him betraying the brothers. And season seven, where he learned to want to make amends. Character-wise, everything progressed from the previous season, and it was pretty relevant and would be jarring if he suddenly disappeared. I assume season eight will be rebuilding that friendship. You might not like his character, but that doesn't make him any less relevant.

(Now the Angel Storyline itself might no longer be relevant, that I'll give you.)

da

I'm pretty sure that to this nonnie "not relevant" means nothing other than "I don't like him". "Deus ex machina", too, simply means "I don't like him".

ayrt

I strongly disagree with you. I'll just leave it at that.

aayrtrt

I was gonna say, "but but S6!" Which was kinda the opposite of magically solving all their problems.

Admittedly, he did magically resolve their lack of sandwiches crisis in S7.

na
The only relevance it had to the plot was killing Sam's only storyline in s7. And it was in the nick of time and mit was out of the blue, Cas had previously said he couldn't fix Sam because he was too weak and then BAM! My bet is that the storyline won't even be mentioned anymore. So yes, Cas is a deus ex machina.

na Castiel is not inherently a deus ex machina. His interests aren't always the Winchesters', and in S6, he actually gave them problems. I think if he's occasionally used as a deus ex machina (or has story lines dropped), it's weak writing, not something intrinsic and unavoidable with the character.

(Personally, I wish he'd been stuck as a human after S5 and he moved in with Bobby and they were grumpy old bastards at each other, and sometimes Cas joined the boys on hunts. Alas!)

An established character can serve as a deus ex machina, for example John Winchester was exactly that in AHBL. There is no contradiction. Cas can be a developed character and, at the same time, a deus ex machina, lazy writer's best friend.

Dean goes to hell. Who's going to pull him out? Cas.

Sam goes to the cage, which is worse and sealed and impregnable. Not for Cas though.

Sam is out, his soul is so damaged, no one can help him, not even Death. One touch from Cas, and he's fine.

Now Dean's in Purgatory, but I'm not worried. There are no stakes. Because, if all else fails, Cas is right there, ready to snap his fingers.

If Cas was a dues ex machina as you described, he would have taken care of everything from the beginning.

He would have taken care of Lucifer so Sam wouldn't have had to jump in the cage.

He would have brought Sam back safe, sound, and whole.

Yes, Cas has served to solve some of the Winchesters problems using his angel powers but since he was a developed, multi-faceted character he was able to choose when he used his powers.

If the writers were smarter, they wouldn't have written him as powerful as he is. Just like he had limitations before (Mr. Comatose during "The Song Remains the Same") he can have them from now on.

na

That ... kinda leaves out a lot.

Dean: Cas was ordered to pull Dean out, for nefarious reasons by the angels. To bring on the apocalypse. So, not so much deus ex machina.

Sam: Cas's hubris led him to think he could pull Sam out of the cage on his lonesome. Didn't work out too well for Sam.

Sam II: also didn't work out too well for anyone involved. This one I might give you, even if I don't agree.

So you're 1 for 3. You might as well call YED!Tessa in 2.01 a deus ex machina for bringing Dean back to life, or the crossroads demon in 2.22 a deus ex machina for bringing Sam back to life. This is a genre show. These things happen as part of larger events. John was indeed a lazy deus ex machina, and I think the second Sam example was partially that (thought it had much more context and history beyond "character randomly shows up just in the nick of time and there are no other consequences" given that Cas goes on to suffer consequences to his actions, and Sam isn't remotely "fine."

Did you watch S7, you moron? There were plenty of dei ex machina there without Cas in the mix.

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#84

Re: Major Spoilers: TV Guide Interview w/ Robert Singer

Re: Major Spoilers: TV Guide Interview w/ Robert Singer

Re: Major Spoilers: TV Guide Interview w/ Robert Singer

Re: Major Spoilers: TV Guide Interview w/ Robert Singer

Re: Major Spoilers: TV Guide Interview w/ Robert Singer

Re: Major Spoilers: TV Guide Interview w/ Robert Singer

Re: Major Spoilers: TV Guide Interview w/ Robert Singer

Re: Major Spoilers: TV Guide Interview w/ Robert Singer

Re: Major Spoilers: TV Guide Interview w/ Robert Singer

Re: Major Spoilers: TV Guide Interview w/ Robert Singer

Re: Major Spoilers: TV Guide Interview w/ Robert Singer

Re: Major Spoilers: TV Guide Interview w/ Robert Singer

Re: Major Spoilers: TV Guide Interview w/ Robert Singer

Re: Major Spoilers: TV Guide Interview w/ Robert Singer

Re: Major Spoilers: TV Guide Interview w/ Robert Singer

Re: Major Spoilers: TV Guide Interview w/ Robert Singer

Re: Major Spoilers: TV Guide Interview w/ Robert Singer

Re: Major Spoilers: TV Guide Interview w/ Robert Singer

Re: Major Spoilers: TV Guide Interview w/ Robert Singer